Harvard extension program reputation

So to me this depends on your goals and reasons for taking this. It might be interesting and fun for enrichment. It could look good on a resume. But compared to a grad degree with some depth and focus in an area of American Studies, this approach is lacking, honestly. BU has a great American Studies program with courses in material culture, and Brown is also know for a great program.

The Harvard grad program would be good too. William and Mary has a program in preservation as I remember. There are many schools to think about. If you are already in a related field, and have a BA in American Studies, history, art history, literature and so on, this could be a nice add on without the full commitment of grad school.

Harvard Extension also had a renowned museum studies certificate. The quality of classes at Harvard Extension are varied but from what I have seen they are far more rigorous than many other schools. There are quite a lot of books for each class, for instance, and a couple of longish papers each term, that kind of thing. All Rights Reserved. What's up bro? Tom Brady didn't go to Harvard. Ryan Fitzpatrick did. Brady, honest question here, did like your parents go to Harvard or someone close to you or something because I have never, ever seen someone so consumed by a college?

You're that bad that even Rat's trolling you and hasnt been hit with monkeyshit. Its frankly unbelievable.. Just done some random Google-ing. Ran into a dude who got a B.

His argument went like this and made sense : so even if he busts his ass off and gets admission to some prestigious MBA , he might not benefit anything from that 'coz he was already from Wharton. However, he desperately needs a master's degree to climb the ladder so HES offers him the coveted Harvard diplomat on his resume, he doesn't even have to quit his job and the income because he can took the majority of courses online.

Good luck to him. The graduation rate is lower than the acceptance rate at Harvard's College for undergrad.

All Ivy and plus kids almost never give themselves less than a 4. We don't need smart ass kids, we need people that can work hard and learn by taking directions. The ironic thing is that, in just aobut every other industry a degree from HES would be just as good as a degree from any of the other Harvard schools. Its just that we work in a prestige obsessed douchebag filled industry. I took some classes at the Harvard Extension School and the classes were very good.

I found most of the students to be very bright, but more importantly the classes were like business school classes and most of the other students had a lot of impressive experience. Harvard runs a very good program.

I'd recommend those classes to anyone. I was an engineer and decided to take classes prior to business school Econ, Accounting, etc. Classes were not as rigorous as bschool but they had excellent professors and engaged, quality students. Don't diss the extension school. I usually have several hours in the early part of the day where I am pretty much doing nothing at the office other then surfing fourms and BSing with people. I think I might take a stab at a class or two, maybe do a degree program if the situation presents it self.

I did HES for 3 years before going to university. I also took community college courses, a target schools summer courses which was exactly same as undergrad as I understand , and state school courses while in highschool and now attend another state school. I guess you can say I have a strong idea of the differences between target and non-target classrooms. My bias for this info is that I took mostly science and math courses.

Unable to comment about humanities. HES goes both ways and it really depends on what classes you take. Some are complete shit and just a way to make money off the Harvard brand does this surprise you? Other classes are at as high standards at Harvard courses, and merge student bodies with actual Harvard students. I can also confirm that those shared classroom courses have about the same level of rigor as courses restricted to only harvard students.

There are also many classes in between the two extremes the O-Chem class is better than the one at my current state school but not as good as chem 17 or 27 at harvard. I'd also like to point out most HES courses are freshman and sophomore level courses, with occasionally an upper div in the mix. So HES in that sense is fairly easy as you'll never get into the truly advanced courses for upper upperclassmen.

Basically its impossible to know how legit HES really is because some people took the legit courses there and they definitely deserve the respect for completing them O-chem is typically hard for most people no matter where you took it - wasn't for me though.

On the other hand, tons off easy courses offered as well, and there are definitely assholes who do them to just get a harvard brand under their belt. From my experience, there is a huge difference. I realize this depends on the non-target you attend, but there really is a huge difference in education quality at Harvard and my state school. What you can learn at harvard in 1 year takes my state school 1. This should be no surprise as harvard selects from the top end of the pool and state schools take in average students.

Again, there really is a difference in your non-target education and harvard. The smartest kids from my state school are very talented and did get accepted into an ivy but couldn't afford it or perhaps didn't play the admissions game very well.

I would even say these kids could outsmart many ivy students but unfortunately won't get as great an education as their ivy peers. However, top state school kids are not at the same level as top ivy kids. There are certain majors at my state school that are better than harvard's in my opinion. Harvard engineering is really not that great. Education is free. All you have to do is read what smart kids read and you'll know the same stuff. There is nothing in an undergrad education that you can't figure out by reading a book because a bachelors in anything really isn't that hard.

The only exception is for lab based courses that require expensive equipment. What really matters is the student and not the degree. I've seen kids at my state school design their course curriculum so they could compete with ivy kids. While the average state school kid who goes through the typical course curriculum will be outdone by the Harvard curriculum, there are many ways to beef up your schedule to level with Ivy kids. They did this by jumping into grad school courses, writing a very good thesis, and independent studies.

V, although I am also expecting other experience, leadership, etc. You competed for grades against some pretty darned bright kids, you beat them hands-down, therefore, purely on the intellectual rankings, you've beaten them. Sorry bro. HES students don't get access to career services offered to regular Harvard students.

I know for a fact that the business masters students at HES are strictly forbidden from using the career resources of HBS and using the HBS name in any form or fashion. OCI brings employers on campus for full-time, first-round job interviews for graduating students.

Interviews are held in late September and October. The majority of the employment opportunities are in finance, consulting, and information technology. I have a relative and a good friend who went to HES one for a B. S and somehow both always 'forget' to add the ES when they are discussing their degree in a casual setting. I imagine this is a root of the antipathy cantabs have for the ES. In order to beat to death something that's been discussed before, I went ahead and checked with Harvard masters in management and they're offering a finance track masters with lots of valuation etc courses.

I wonder how this program, for total, compared to Boston colleges msf. I told ant he should go and take a peek and try to garner some info but a lot of the classes are taught by HBS professors. I took some courses at harvard extension for fun. They were extremely well done 1 professor was a prof at the business school, another was the head of an area history department , better overall than a lot of the courses I took for my undergrad, and the teachers were very prompt in responding to my inquiries.

That said, harvard extension has no prestige which a lot of people in finance seem to care a lot about and given that a its essentially a community college anyone can get in with the harvard stamp doesn't do it any favors.

Conversely, I knew a guy during one of my internships who was working on a degree from harvard x, and he had gotten the internship over hundreds of other candidates who had applied including at least one HBS student.

So there is some hope out there, but he was also working full time, so it seems to me that these combined things worked to make him seem like he had a lot of drive and hunger to succeed in the role. I'm sure the courses are well done. One of my good friends used to teach at the program, and the last time we got together i asked about his thoughts on the program. He said a lot of his students were rich internationals who were living in boston and just wanted to take some classes at harvard.

He said he can't figure out why people would want to waste their money on it otherwise, but of course he's not complaining since he made decent money from teaching. I'm just thinkin it could be a decent cheaper alternative to some msf programs as long as you are a go getter but I'm curious what kind of oCR stuff you'd have access to etc. Does anyone here know any grads from the program, what they do, what they did before the program, etc..

People here talk about this program in a very negative light, when in reality they know nothing about it. I'm looking for information on alternatives to getting an MBA for a few years. The program is legit. I dont understand the negativity to it. A friend of mine is in the program now, well is in the Government program, and he has Harvard undergrads alongside him. So perhaps that gives some perspective to those who feel this 'Harvard' is beneath them. Also, start going to HBS mixers and tell them you're a harvard student and see what they say.

I don't think it is to necessarily compete with the HBs kids obviously not, but for a 23k option with someone who knows their stuff and can network some vs.. Obviously not a swap for a top MBA at all not trying to justify this, I'm just curious to see what the reality of this program is asides from all the he said she said my friend fucked a dog there once kind of psychobabble that we get on here-- which is why I think it would be great to go ahead and try to connect and see what is said.

Put it this way. As much as I adore harvard, i would rather do a MSF at boston college than this program. And no, it's not "psychobabble" when the source is someone who actually taught at the program and knows the realities of the students' options. If you're at a F something like this can easily be a catalyst for a promotion.

Guys do it at my firm pretty regularly Not this particular program but ones like it. If you graduate from this program this is what you have to put on your resume - Master of Liberal Arts, General Management or Finance depending on your chosen track , Harvard University Extension School.

Looks like crap if you ask me, its better to go to a city school than go to a school that comes off as a scam or a wannabe harvard guy. Architecto vero omnis et quo totam. Aliquam quia quo sit ratione. Incidunt sed aliquid itaque quia et iure sequi. Odit accusamus explicabo magnam omnis. Sit neque cumque harum. Ex eum id quia voluptates fugit dicta. Est quibusdam itaque consectetur aut amet sit blanditiis. Eos omnis voluptas ducimus. Rerum nobis et voluptas sint iusto pariatur architecto omnis.

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Harvard Extension School Reputation. Rank: Senior Neanderthal 5, I asked and he said, no its at the extension school. Is the school legit? Is extension harvard school legit? However, one user shared details about degree programs with the Harvard Extension School. United States - Northeast. United States - West. United States - Midwest. Log in or register to post comments. Comments Add comment. HF Interview Questions. I think on your resume you are supposed to put Harvard University Extension School I am not sure how it is viewed in the real world though.

Hedge Fund Pitch for Interviews. In my opinion, it reflects poorly on the University to require this delineation. No, they are not. Very different candidates, curricula, and student experiences. Yes, there is some overlap in coursework and requirements, and some Extension School students are able to participate in Harvard College classes at an equivalent or even superior level this, according to a College professor some years back who reported 1 or 2 HES online students had received the top scores in an exam.

Thank you for the response. That was the same issue requirement to have Extension I was referring to. My viewpoint is likely similar to yours. Simply list the specific degree you earned as it is designated. Personally none of this will impact me if I choose to go with Harvard.

In particular, I see potential disadvantage when competing with a graduate of a competing Ivy. I think risking a reduction in competitiveness of the degree in comparison to competing Universities like Yale or Brown is not in the best interest of the University. Again, thank you for the response! Although I agree that the student has expended a great deal of time, effort, and money, his or her extension degree can never have the same value as the on campus earned degree, gotten with not only effort, but the connections required for traditional admission.

You may be wrong. Virtually none of this came from Extension. By your logic then, Harvard College would have very little interest in educating those in the College this is my phrasing of not looking out for their welfare.

In fact, the College is the real cash cow. Do you then believe that College degrees are devalued? That endowment is for the entire harvard university system. Not the college. The school that contributes the most in terms of alumni donations is actually the law school and you can tell if you have ever walked around their campus which looks like a resort compared to the rest of Harvard. Yes, I agree that Law may now contribute more these days, but the College has contributed much over many years.

So does the above logic also imply that Harvard need not really take teaching law seriously? This is a travesty, an insult, to all those who applied and were accepted to Harvard College proper.

The entity is fraudulent just for existing. There is a lawsuit to have it removed as it has damaged reputations. Not only did many of us attend these institutions but there are more than a few who earned 3. And as such we need the flexibility of working and taking classes.

That is if you know anybody who actually attends Harvard. I am sorry you seem to have such disdain for a program you know nothing about nor enrolled in. I wish you the best and hope you find peace in spreading positivity rather than hatred. Should damages be awarded to all Harvard College grads all the way back to , which was the year HES was created?

I saw this response on Google and went in only to read amazing people debunking your unpalatable comment. I have my own experience. Sc from top public engineering schools. Masters of Engineering form Cornell. EMBA from top-rated program. Online certificate. Currently, considering HES. Life is simple. It is whatever you take from it! Furthermore, there are many more online or hybrid options available nowadays. HES may have been one of the few distance-friendly options around a decade ago, but the landscape has changed a lot since then.

That being said, I think HES is a nice option for Harvard employees who get to take classes as one of their benefits. Good points, and Harvard indeed needs to enter the 21st century at some point. On the other hand, transcripts define the course work, and can serve to counter the meaningless and misleading extension studies label.

So employers have the information, should they choose to use it. Several hiring officers commented positively on my thesis on Yugoslav politics. I initially served as an East European analyst and later spent a decade following Middle East politics.

The Agency loaned me to the Dept. I retired from the CIA after 25 years. Thanks Harvard. Has anyone been accepted via any of the micromasters programs that are available? Bachelor of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies cum laude or Bachelor of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies: — cumulative GPAs, areas of concentration, fields of study, minors, certificates, prizes, and academic awards are displayed on your Harvard transcript.

Fields of study, cumulative GPAs, certificates, prizes, and academic awards appear on your Harvard transcript. I know you are not the only one coming over from the MITx program.

Read the thread to learn the various viewpoints. Also, it should be noted that a Micromaster certificate from edX is technically not accredited. On that regard, getting a graduate certificate, such as one in data science, from Harvard Extension School would be considered accredited.

I found out that the Extension has been more than years since Here comes to a question: Is that enough to build the reputation? How come people are still having the same arguments? The only answer I can think of is, It is what is it. Thanks for your question, JJ. I have a full reply here: Why the Harvard Extension School still struggles with reputation. Simply put, it feels as if Harvard is more than happy to take our money and then go out of their way to diminish the value of the work we put into it, including classes and a thesis done with tenured Harvard faculty.

For what it is worth, it is not like Harvard University ever intended the Extension School to be as highly regarded as the other schools in the University. HES served as their adult education community outreach offering, as an employee perk, and as a pseudo-for profit school… and it worked, with HES having more students than the rest of the University combined.

Personally, I think HES is a great option for those looking for a somewhat cheap education though nowadays there are much cheaper options with some amount of flexibility though, again, there are much more flexible options out there and little or no barrier to entry aka, no traditional admissions process that practically requires you to be a National Merit Finalist and still only admitting 4.

For Harvard employees, the nearly free cost of taking classes makes HES a truly appealing choice. Or, say you apply to a company that had a Harvard College or HBS graduate as one of your job application reviewers, who knows how said person would react to an applicant with a degree from HES.

Maybe the reviewer would be fine with it. While I personally would view HES as a positive, it could also be a liability depending on who is looking.

This is generally not an issue for those coming from the other schools at Harvard. If you want an education, HES is a great choice. If you want to advance your career, depending on the field, HES may still be a great choice. Reading this answer confirms my intuition about essentially ignoring my ALM when I talk about resume credibility.

A study of Harvard College admissions between — showed that while normal student applicants had a 5. For the Harvard College class of , applicants from big donor families had a But, of course, the best way of getting admitted into Harvard College has nothing to do with academics whatsoever. I completely disagree. I Have graduate degree from Columbia University. Harvard, like Columbia, is divided into schools. At Columbia, Columbia College and other Schools can award undergraduate and graduate degrees.

The Extension School at Harvard is just another school equal to all other schools with rights to the Harvard name. It is not a lesser degree, nor should it require any additional explanation in its presentation in society or on resumes. SPS also has a competitive traditional application process, which includes submission of transcripts, resume, statement of purpose, recommendation letters, supplemental essay, video essay, interview, and, depending on the major, GRE exam scores.

Columbia Engineering also offers online masters and doctoral degrees in such majors as computer science, mechanical engineering, applied mathematics, and more via CVN Columbia Video Network. I agree with the general tone of your comments, but must take issue with some of the details. Harvard offers a wide variety of masters degrees, a number of which require only 8 courses, compared to 12 for nearly all Extension degrees.

This rate is far higher than a number of other Harvard masters and well below others. Again, not altogether true. And none of this even addresses the myriad admission Procedures that bypass the stated formidable admission barriers often described.

Could you elaborate what this means? This makes more sense. If that was in fact the case, it would be more closely equivalent to a traditional view of an acceptance rate in my mind.

If my assumption was not correct, the meaning of his statement regarding acceptance is more vague. You are incorrect about admissions process; I know because I went through the application. Just a minute mention. Your point is right, though I would offer that traditional admission processes—while widely used—are no longer the only process, even among elite universities.

Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, the California system and many others including Harvard offer a variety of paths to admission. It is tempting to defer to the institution as to what admissions criteria are used.

They, after have this authority and the right to employ it in whatever forms they deem appropriate. Harvard wants Extension School students to pay a bloated price for having the Harvard name next to their degrees.

Knowing that it would lose income, Harvard perpetuates the fraud of its own creation. Use whatever degree name you choose. Go ahead and use it. I figured I would weigh in with my experience as well. I graduated with my ALM in with a concentration in History. I had the opportunity to work with a highly respected emeritus historian from the Divinity School, who supervised my thesis. Air Force Academy in Colorado. I was also accepted at Cambridge, Duke, and Johns Hopkins.

The quality of the work you do matters e. My ALM degree has opened up a lot of doors in academia for me that I would not have had access to otherwise. Fantastic, Myles! As a fellow ALM History grad, I absolutely agree with your observation about working with top faculty emeritus or otherwise at Harvard.

My thesis director was FAS and really helped me take my research idea to the next level and create a thesis that I am not only proud of, but is occasionally cited or referenced by other scholars. He also offered to help me with a job search in Washington D.

Thank you for being up front about your Harvard Extension School association, too. This helps all of us to further the reputation of the quality of the HES programs. Ian, thanks a lot. Appreciate this platform for HES grads to share their experiences and perspectives. I have found it to be an incredibly worthwhile investment and the most rewarding and challenging educational experience I have ever had. Pointing out specific and numerous program deficiencies does not help ALM Management alumni like myself land a job easier in this difficult job market.

I wanted to start a different blog about all my misadventures as a FAS staff member and student for the five years I was on-campus.

But a fellow alumna from the same program talked me out of it. I enjoyed reading this blog and back then, the now defunct extensionstudent. Or that the Harvard Instructor requirement was dropped? I could go on. Can these bullet points possibly plant a seed of doubt in the mind of a hiring manager who come across this? Most probably. The negative perception of the Extension School has been, unfortunately, widely known for quite some time.

Perception equals reality! The reputation of the Extension School will remain diminished if all these negative aspects continue to be pointed out. Which is the reason why I will not publish previously unknown information. Employers would then overlook the fact that I graduated from the Extension School and I would not have to struggle explaining all the nuances in a job interview! Narayanan , the Thomas D. Casserly, Jr. What a fantastic opportunity for ALM Management students! I urge anyone in these programs to make every effort to take actual classes with Harvard faculty when such courses are available.

Longer term, what the ALM in Management should strive for is building its own faculty solely focused on the needs of Extension School students, conducting research, and publishing. I came across the HES just recently whilst researching options to obtain a postgraduate degree alongside working as an independent consultant based in Europe.

I have no intention to enroll in a full-time or a part-time in-person based programme at a university especially not with Covid still going on. So, I am looking to do a self-paced post-graduate online and in-person hybrid degree to enhance my skills and profile. Naturally, I want a top-tier brand on my CV. Since I came across the controversy around the status of the HES graduates I spend some time reading up all sides of the argument just to understand how it could have come to this point in the first placet.

Harvard appears to be quite passive about the controversy and is not taking ownership of the discussion whatsoever. This is puzzling. If they would publicly declare that HES grads and Harvard College grads are equal no matter what despite the different onboarding process this would take a lot of steam out of the discussion.

Plus, since Corona has caused a massive shift towards online across pretty much every sector the perception of a partly online-taught degree has changed. Why is there one standard for HES alumni and then another one for the other Harvard schools alumni?

Having said that the Department also takes professional experience into account, thus, applies a more nuanced assessment of the candidate without compromising its own standards. My point is that here in the UK a discussion of the kind around the HES is totally absent and no one would even dare to doubt any Oxford degree regardless whether it was obtained at the age of 21 or Oxford is Oxford. And I am pretty sure that Oxford itself would quell any discussion and doubt itself right from the outset not to let its reputation slip into miscredit.

So in my view the onus is on Harvard to clarify its position in order to clean up the mess and the confusion once and for all.

Thanks for your comment and sharing your perspective from the UK. The central administration Massachusetts Hall, headed by President Bacow works with a very public voice but a light touch on matters concerning individual schools and programs.

That said, even though there is a light touch there are rules and norms that keep each school in their respective lanes. Regardless, as I have said on this blog and elsewhere, I think many HES educational offerings represent a high-quality education, especially those courses and programs that have a Harvard faculty connection. Wherever you end up, good luck with your studies. It might actually advance the quality of your education if your instructor does not have a Harvard teaching appointment.

Complementing my education, I have 34 years of professional experience coupling the fields of engineering and economics.

Of those 34 years, I have worked the last 24 years in my own consulting firm…. I have a long career working with Harvard, Princeton, Chicago and other top universities. I have coauthored with some top faculty at the universities as well.

Studied under a Nobel laureate—know, fish, have a beer or two with other Nobel laureates. I have had Harvard grads run down data for me—they do—as you suggest—a good job generally, though they do make the same kinds of simple mistakes as do young graduates from other universities. As an employed middle-aged guy with a stable career who is finally finishing his degree by way of the ALB program at HES, I have the luxury of ignoring the East Coast prestige-obsessed point-tallying crowd, and I can simply enjoy the fact that I am taking Harvard classes taught by Harvard professors, in many cases alongside Harvard College students.

I would encourage any other HES student to treat it the same way. Having said that, Harvard does not give HES or its students and alumni a fair shake. This was my first year in HES. I took a writing class, two computer science classes and a philosophy class.

I received an A in two of the classes, A- in two of the others. Anyone who thinks I was somehow a lesser student is welcome to sign up for CS50 and give it a try for themselves. And yet, while one can replicate a Harvard College program for certain concentrations such as computer science , it is absolutely true that you can take a much less rigorous set of classes and still wind up with an ALB degree from HES.

So, what to do? It seems to me that Harvard needs to pick a more honorable path, by either lowering tuition and simply granting certificates, or else raising the bar for the ALB degree program by matching the concentration requirements to the corresponding concentration requirements of the College, and then simply granting the same degrees maybe call it an ALB instead of an AB, but it would essentially be the same.

They could even do both. But something needs to change, because the current arrangement does a disservice to HES and its students. Thanks Kurt, for sharing your experience. I totally agree with your approach of trying to take as many Harvard College classes as possible as well as classes with Harvard professors to get the most out of your experience. The same cannot be said for many ALM programs. The Extension School wanted to expand its degree offerings, and the only way to do it was by watering down or eliminating pesky Harvard teaching requirements.

But the idea that you can receive a degree from Harvard without ever taking ANY classes under Harvard faculty members is a major mistake. Out of the 60, people a year taking classes at HES only about earn a degree which is pretty selective.

The lists of professors and their classes is about the same except HES has more offerings than Harvard College because HES also has a graduate program that draws from the other schools within the university system.

Given the option to hire an experienced adult who worked full time during the day and earned a Harvard degree at night as well as smart enough to recognize an affordable option like HES to gain an education debt free, that demonstrates true intelligence.

Naysayers are just jealous that they missed the HES opportunity because HES will not invite you to apply to earn a degree if you already have one. You can take classes at HES, but you have to prove yourself worthy to be invited to apply to a degree program, then you have to be accepted, and finally qualify to be granted the degree. Once you are an HES degree candidate you are a Harvard University student with all the rights and privileges of all the other degree candidates on that campus.

Haters are gonna hate because they are just jealous. The lists of professors and their classes is about the same. This is flat-out wrong, and undermines the other good points you made. The number of HES degrees in was not about As someone who has just discovered your blog because I was very excited to transfer to HES and learn about what HES has to offer, this article, along with all the comments, left me feeling discouraged from applying. But this is the first time in my life I see students penalized and looked down upon for the mere fact of having a career and other life responsibilities while having a desire to pursue top-notch education.

Demanding one school to list their accomplishments in a weird disserving way and not requiring the same from the others is absurd, elitist, and classist.

I respectfully suggest you take a good sociology class as this is a common problem in capitalist societies. Out of so many good points in the above comment, you picked on an insignificant numerical error? Instead of 0. Did I fix the blatant untruth for you that was clearly so significant that it undermined this point and all others? I am seeing it more often in the comments on my blog, and in social media.

Like many falsehoods repeated as fact, sometimes there is a small element of truth that lends credence to the claims. I encourage every students to take advantage of those opportunities. KSG government studies graduate programs. The University should be trumpeting the HES admissions standards from the rafters.

You can call yourself whatever you want, and use whatever reasoning or justification you want. I only had Harvard faculty for 8 of my 12 courses. All 8 of them. Your email address will not be published. Home What employers think about Harvard Extension School degrees. It will matter less in a highly competitive field in a big city compared to a less competitive market in a rural area or overseas. Here are just a few examples from LinkedIn: Not everyone does this, of course.

What HR and hiring managers think about Extension School grads Several people involved in hiring decisions have commented how they regard HES grads compared to their counterparts from other schools. But there are more than a few managers out there who have been burned by HES grads misrepresenting their degrees : As somebody who has personally on-boarded somebody claiming an HES degree as a HGSAS degree, I can tell you that this is pure bullwack.

Another example : It happens every few years where my firm gets an HES grad misrepresenting their degree. Lean Media. Dear DK — You have my infinite thanks for your comment. Wow, Nathan Krawdaddy, thanks for the meaningful substantive contribution! There is no difference in quality. Pardon the typos. Thank you both for sharing your insights! I have also always wanted to write a book so the degree might help me perfect my craft. Go for it, Peggy. Thank you for your wonderfully written and well argued reply.